Going Deeper
The Going Deeper podcast challenges cultural norms from a Christ-centered perspective. We discuss topics spanning the entire spiritual-secular spectrum from social media and individualism to fasting and scripture memory. Come burdened by the noise and pressure of a 'have-it-all' world---leave refreshed and encouraged to go deeper in your relationship with God!
Going Deeper
Body Image, Burnout, and the Bible with Whitney Lowe
In today's episode, I sat down with Whitney Lowe to discuss her new book, Set Your Eyes Higher: A 40-Day Reset to Slow Your Anxiety and Fix Your Focus on God, available on September 24th!
We talk about everything, from devotionals and Bible reading to burnout and body image.
Pre-order her new book: https://tr.ee/2J_bEC1lxZ
Follow Whitney on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whitneypiersonlowe/
More about Set Your Eyes Higher:
Americans spend an average of seven hours and three minutes online every day, according to DataReportal. Social media algorithms are designed to keep users
returning to their phones for a seemingly endless cycle of information, and the increasing dependence on phones and devices is working – Americans spend an average of four hours and twenty-five minutes a day on a smartphone, according to Reviews.org. Yet despite living in the information age, many people increasingly report that life feels like it makes less sense, and research has found that that excessive screen time can have a substantial negative impact on both physical and mental well-being. Whitney Lowe witnessed this negative impact firsthand: not only did she suffer physical pain from straining her neck to constantly look down at a device, social media also compounded her insecurity and
anxiousness. Whitney knew she needed to set her gaze somewhere else— somewhere up and out.
Set Your Eyes Higher: A 40-Day Reset to Slow Your Anxiety and Fix Your Focus on God (Zondervan Gift, September 24, 2024) by Whitney Lowe is a 40-day reset that will help you let go of what's not serving you, honor your limitations, and turn your gaze toward a God who loves who you are and who you're becoming in Him.
I am so excited for you guys to listen to today's episode. I got to sit down with Whitney Lowe. She is the new author of Set Your Eyes Higher, a 40-day reset to slow your anxiety and fix your focus on God. It becomes available September 24th, wherever you get books, and I will make sure to include all of the details in the show notes. We had a chance to talk about all things body image, humility, identity, and being content in a culture telling us to have it all and be it all. So without further ado, here is my interview with Whitney. Welcome to Going Deeper. Whitney, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to chat with me.
SPEAKER_02:I'm excited. It's so fun to get to connect with people that I've known online for a long time and then get to actually have a real long-form conversation. So it's super fun. I'm really excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yes. Thank you. I know we're both moms. We were discussing beforehand where our kids are, and that's always fun. Always in the back of my mind. How old are
SPEAKER_02:yours
SPEAKER_00:again? So my son, he'll be four in October, and my daughter just turned two. And she just, she's just potty training too. So,
SPEAKER_02:oh yeah, we're super close. My son will be four in December and my daughter will be two in November.
SPEAKER_00:So
SPEAKER_02:cool. Right there. Very
SPEAKER_00:close. Yeah. Good ages.
SPEAKER_02:They're fun, but they're crazy. That's what I always say. I'm like, they're so fun, but they're genuinely feral. Like,
SPEAKER_00:oh, feral is a great word. Feral is crazy. Yeah. There was, there was probably some repentance that needed to happen in preparation for this episode. I was like, I'm just trying to make y'all a sandwich.
SPEAKER_02:But like, right here. Yeah, no, got to get right with the Lord.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I always start out every episode with a recommendation, whether that be like a book you're reading, a podcast you're loving, a worship song on repeat. So do you have any current favorites that you want to share? I
SPEAKER_02:do. And actually, I've been talking about it with friends a lot lately. And Some people in certain circles, like totally have, you know, they're going to be like, oh yeah, I've already heard of this. And other people have never heard of this ever in their life. And those are the people that I'm like, walk or run, don't walk. But it's called Domestic Monastery. It's a book by Ronald Rollheiser. And it has been so, just to even talking about having kids that are young and challenging. His whole thing is really just, even coming from like a male perspective, which I always find interesting, but just the spiritual formation and transformation that is sort of inherent to motherhood and how I think a lot of moms like you and me get really bogged down with, oh, I don't have time for my normal devotional or I haven't been praying enough and kind of this guilt that we just add to the rest of the guilt. And this book is so freeing just in, for me, digging into all the ways that God has really doesn't even give us a choice, right? Like He is sanctifying us through being mothers. And it's okay. I think we should, of course, still try to get in the Bible. We should, of course, still really focus on rich prayer lives, but also to know that it's going to look different in the season and that God designed it that way. And that there's something really beautiful about all the spiritual heavy lifting that God's going to do if you are trying to be faithful as a mother, regardless of your own effort. And I, yeah, it's been super freeing. in this season. So yeah, highly recommend.
SPEAKER_00:I literally have that book on my Kindle library to be read. Oh my gosh. One of my best friends is like a avid reader. Like she would choose reading over TV. And so she's always like seven books ahead for me. And she recommended Domestic Monastery. And I was like, I love the title of that. And she loved the book, had so many good things to say about it, but I haven't delved into it yet. Truth be told, I tell her this all the time. I just... hate parenting books, but I know it's not a parenting book, but for whatever reason, anytime a book talks about parenting or discipleship, discipling your kids, it just intimidates me. You know, I don't know why it just does. So I do feel like I would have to
SPEAKER_02:chew on it slowly. Well, and it's short, it's actually super tiny and I don't, it's definitely not. I mean, there's definitely parts about it that touch on parenting, but I, yeah, I think my big takeaway has just been actually kind of releasing a lot of the guilt. I love that. That's good. You
SPEAKER_00:should go read it. Yeah, I will. And then I will touch base. So one of the big reasons that I wanted to have you on my podcast is because I think I started following you on Instagram like a year ago. I can't I think we have a similar spirit. You address things in our culture on your Instagram, and you're one of the people that I know is going to address it from a truthful perspective, but also you're going to address it with grace. And I feel like that's a missing thing on social media. The media world today is being able to address cultural issues from a truthful perspective, but also do so and not miss the cross. And I think you do a really good job of that. And so I was like, I want to make sure that I have her on, but it worked out perfectly that you are launching a book. So for those who don't know you or those who don't follow you on social media, share a little bit about who you are as well as like your reason for wanting to write this book.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I, my name is Whitney Lowe and I started on Instagram in 2019 and as the result of working in ministry. My husband's a pastor. And at that time, he was a young adult pastor. And I was volunteering with the high school ministry and had done that for a number of years in different capacities. And really just in that time, 2019, right before the world kind of blew up, was so aware that, you know, they'd bring me all these problems and they'd say, I'm really struggling to believe God is real. I'm really struggling to see that I'm loved. I'm really struggling with confidence. And my answer as someone who has a religious studies major in college and had been doing ministry was very often something about opening your Bible or reading a passage and pretty quickly realizing that if you don't have a a little bit more of a lens for how to read the Bible, it is hard to just open it cold and get it and feel like God is speaking to you in the way that maybe people who have been Christians their whole life and had that from day one would be able to. So kind of with that in mind and kind of also with the knowledge that they're on their phones all the time, you know, they're like, I don't have time to read the Bible and I don't like it. But I'm like, you're on your phone all the time and you need it. What if I created some form of aesthetic social media driven resource that would in a tiny, tiny way show you the kind of thing that God is saying in scripture to me and make it something pretty that would flash across your screen and disrupt the constant scrolling. So that's what I did. And I actually didn't tell anyone about it because I was very nervous. So I just started writing and started creating these graphics on like It's not Canva, but it's something very similar. I was posting them and it just felt like at that moment, it really just took off. And I have no explanation for that other than just the Lord's faithfulness and wanting to kind of direct me in a season of my life that did feel a little bit directionless. And then we hit 2020, right? And everything went nuts. And from there, I think I've had a heart to also, in addition to these devotionals, give people a place to ground their thinking about these really stressful things. in a lens that, like you said, is very framed by the cross. Ann Voskamp always says cruciform, like cruciform living and cruciform thinking. I know. I think it just means in the shape of a cross, but I love using it to frame everything about the way we show up in the world and the way that we communicate. So all that to say, just, you know, when you're looking at the cross, it's hard to give yourself more credit than you're due. It's hard to be really pompous and prideful. And sometimes it's even, it's even hard to be totally sure that you in and of your own right, have the wisdom and the capacity to address a lot of the stuff going on in the world. But I think, again, when you look at the cross, you also see that there's a God who cares so much about you and cares so much about all these other people who are still lost and still hurting that we have the opportunity to at least speak that grace to people in all of these different places. And, I think that was a choice to start speaking into some of these issues that was received differently by different people who maybe just wanted a devotional. But yeah, since then, I think I've found that I really like being able to talk about both and like being able to just talk about how scripture really is comprehensive. It's not just a devotional and it's not just about politics. Like scripture is all consuming. And so we should be able to approach it as such and talk about it as such.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love that. I love that your heart was, okay, this is the problem that I'm seeing. This is the people that I'm like, I mean, you're literally, you're seeing them in a small group setting, like, and they're voicing these things to you and you're like, okay, what is something that I can do about it? And it was very, it's very clear that the Lord honored that. That's just so cool. Um, so many things that I want to pull from that. Um, Okay, so the second part of that question was, like, what in connection to just, you started this kind of devotional Instagram account, it blows up, COVID hits, and then coming up with this book idea. Where did this come from? Out of what place?
SPEAKER_02:Well, so there's a few different answers to that, I guess. Um, And really, I think the truest and easiest one to explain is just simply that as a result of this Instagram page, it was so clear that people really are hungry for scripture and that we don't get enough of it. And that when we do consume scripture, it's often pretty shallow and watered down. So I want people to develop a daily habit of consuming scripture. And, you know, they say it's 21 days to form a habit. So there was a little part of me that was just like, what if we just challenged people to to make that habit of consuming scripture in whatever form. And for me, even as someone who's been a lifelong Christian, who's a pastor's wife, and again, has a literal degree in religious studies, I still even found that developing that habit in my own life was a challenge. And often, the soft way of building it was finding a book, any book that was Christian and could grab my coffee and go sit in my little corner, read that for 15 minutes, and then prime myself to dig into the word of God from there. And that was sort of the way I have it stacked to really make that part of my daily practice. So that was kind of the 40-day challenge piece of things. And also 40 is such a significant biblical number. I don't even know that we fully understand why 40 is a number that God picks, but I think that number of days... is really challenging for us as human beings. And I think if we give that to God and see what he does with it, it'll be really cool. But the other side of it as a devotional was, yeah, looking around us and realizing how much of our discourse as Christians seems to be framed by a lot of contention and a lot of anger and just feeling like a lot of that is coming from a place that's actually like fear and anxiety in the body of Christ. So before we go into another election year, what would it look like? Well, we're in the election year, but before we go into the actual election, what would it look like to center ourselves on God's authority and his kingship that he has already won and is already sure of that we can look up to, to know like the battles have already been won. And our job now is to represent God's heart, the heart of a father for lost people. That doesn't really change the morality of any of the conversations we're having. It just means like, we should have that heart too. That heart of wanting people to be drawn near to God and wanting to be able to hear truth in the way that God, I think, often communicates it to us with that gentleness. And I think in order to get people to really set their eyes on that victory of God and that King, we have to be scripturally rigorous. We can't prove text. So the devotional does have a number of texts to dive into if you are looking for and in a place where that is needed. exciting for you. And hopefully it will be by the end of the devotional. So yeah, there's, I think I was just excited about how can we kind of transform our habits as believers in the current climate that we're all living in. And I think the word of God
SPEAKER_00:is the way. Yeah. And to encourage you, when I was in college, I had fallen away from the faith. And when I sort of had this wake up call, like you come to Jesus, like 2018, I was 22. I remember you know, being that girl, being the girl that you're talking about right now, uh, who like wanted more of God was on my phone. Um, all the things that you just like literally described earlier. And I remember being so overwhelmed with the Bible, but knowing that like, God was the only way that I was going to make it through what I was going through. And I literally went to Barnes and Noble and I was like, I need a devotional.
UNKNOWN:Um,
SPEAKER_00:And I picked up Priscilla Shire's Awakening. It's like a 90-day devotional that you read. And I don't even know if there's, I think there is probably some scripture and there's like a little journal entry. And that was my bite-sized, this is all I can bring to the table right now slash know what to do, know how to do. And it was life altering. And so I never want to, I think truthfully, like if I'm honest, just seeing three years ago, I wasn't anti-devotionals because as I told you before, like before this, before we recorded the interview that like, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably have like a really combative or a critical spirit. But I was critical of a lot of devotionals because a lot of them felt very watered down. But as I've matured, I've come to this place where I, If that's the entry point that somebody needs, if that's the seed that the Lord's going to use to work in and through them, so be it, right? Because that's the thing is I think a lot of us are like, we need to be opening up God's word. But it is intimidating for a lot of people. I think having something that is approachable, other than I think because we have the tendency to want to be like, No, you need to go hardcore. Here's a hardcore study and jump right in. It's like, well, that might not be the best thing for them. You know, it's milk, right? Like they're not, they haven't moved to solid food yet. So anyways, I love that that is your heart. And I love that that was your mindset going into the devotional. And I think even for me, like as a mom, I love Paul David Tripp, New Morning Mercies. Like when I'm in a really tough season, it's got a little scripture at the bottom. And if I just need a devotional and a scripture to go with it, like that's going to be what I go for. So I am really praying that the Lord does use this in the way that you're hoping. So in the devotional, Set Your Eyes Higher, it's broken up into four sections, identity and insecurity, wisdom and humility, capacity and burnout, and scarcity and abundance. Why do you think so many Christians struggle in these four main areas? And because I'm imagining that's why you chose to, like, these were the ones you chose.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So yes, these four categories, I think, actually kind of developed as I was writing the book. We knew it was going to be probably 40 days. And, you know, you kind of try to figure out how many entries that's going to end up being total. Right. And I just started kind of writing down all these different categories where I felt like God wanted to retrain my focus. And... put me back in a place where I could enjoy his abundance and could really feel and live with his grace. And I think it just, you know, I'm just writing, writing, writing. And then as we keep going throughout the process, it became very clear that a lot of us are struggling with this struggle to focus properly when it comes to who we are. So that's identity and insecurity. We don't really know what it means to identify yourself and find your identity. in Christ and that's such a relevant topic. But I think Christians get so used to talking about identity and, you know, some of the more political issues that we kind of forget that we too are often very lost in what our identity is and where it should be placed. And we end up just as off course with finding ourselves in things that are not ultimately God. So My experience with an eating disorder in college that, you know, I really feel like was my testimony in a lot of ways. Like I did grow up a Christian, but that is what taught me about sin. And that I think really humbled me to realize how vulnerable we are if we are not really intentional. We're not really walking in step with the spirit to the kind of thing that really can kind of take you out from the inside. And that was that little bit of insecurity and those little lies that I let determine my behavior instead of God. So identity and security is the first section. And that's again about setting our focus on God when it comes to who we are. And then the second section is wisdom and humility, because I do feel like in the culture we live in, and this is such social media. So a lot of my thoughts on social media and the way that that's impacting us spiritually are in this section, because I see so much confidence, overconfidence, arrogance in the way that we post online, in the way that we think about issues that we could possibly understand everything about someone, everything about an issue, everything about the history of something by simply consuming online content. Like that was the red flag for me that kind of got me thinking about it. But then you go to the Bible and you see how many times like Proverbs in particular, like people who think they know everything are setting themselves in opposition to the wisdom of God. So wanting to make sure that when we approach all of the complexity in the world when we approach other people, that we are doing that with the kind of humility that really lets God's wisdom lead the way. I think that's going to be really relevant. So that second chapter is about setting our focus when it comes to like what we can know and what we can really fully understand as limited humans. The third section is on capacity and burnout. So sort of in tandem with the first two chapters, I think there's just, we're carrying these burdens, feeling like we need to run a company and start a business and be perfect parents and make sure that our marriages are perfectly healthy and attend a church and lead in the church. And all of these burdens just get laid on and laid on and laid on. And really God doesn't ask us to carry all of those burdens. God doesn't ask us. to write our resume and turn it in when we get to heaven. God wants us to respond. And a lot of the time, I think in spite of the fact that all of these issues are in front of our face all day, he really ultimately primarily has called us to respond to the things that he puts in our path, in our physical path throughout the day. And I think I found myself so often focusing my energy on like an online topic or an online controversy when there are like people in need, 100%. Yeah. And I think there's so much freedom. And again, looking to God, setting our focus on what God wants to do through us and not what we think we have to do. So there are some entries, 10 entries on that topic in particular. And then the final section is on scarcity and abundance. And I actually think this mentality informs all of the previous three, but just this fundamental belief that there is not enough. Like whether it's when it comes to dating, right? I don't really talk about dating because I don't have a ton to say about it. Having been married for a while, my husband would not have appreciated that. But when it comes to friendships, like there are not enough people. There aren't good enough people around me. I don't have anyone to be friends with. Like, are you sure? Are you sure God's not planning to surprise you abundantly with a relationship that maybe you automatically wrote off with your neighbor across the street or the older woman at your church who doesn't feel like she's like, bestie material. You know, like I think we shut down God's abundance by thinking it has to look a certain way. And a lot of that is informed by social media and culture. But I also experienced that again, kind of looping back to the beginning in the context of body image and believing like I was not enough. So to really reframe that as like, God's not asking you to be. So when you look up at God and you look at God's enoughness, That sense of abundance kind of washes over everything else in your life. And again, I think imparts a really deep sense of peace when everything else around you is screaming scarcity. So that was a long-winded answer, but those are why my heart is really taken with those four categories and feeling like all of us really need to be so thoughtful and intentional in the world we're living in about setting our focus, setting our eyes on the truth of God.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_00:getting into the habit of doing that, like, cause I think we often think that the habit is either on Sunday mornings or, you know, 5am when we do our devotional time. And it's like, no, I think if I've learned anything that to mature as a believer is to realize that that, that process of reminding yourself happens like constantly because it's so easy to shift and to, especially with being on social media and with all of the information that's coming at us nonstop, it's very hard to shut it off. And it's also very hard to be renewing your mind when your mind is constantly being inundated with other things that are not of God. Um, and also too, I love that. Every one of us has encountered a struggle in one of those areas at some point, and we all have a different experience with them, whether that be the identity I loved. I think identity is such a under... What's the word? It's not talked about in the right way, in my opinion, because I think you have this camp of Christian that's just like, your identity is in Christ, and that's it. And so we're like, okay, yeah, great. But I'm also like,
SPEAKER_02:what
SPEAKER_00:does that mean? Right. What does that even mean? There's like blurred lines. And so we don't even want to delve into that. But I think if we took the time to delve into that, it would literally shape every other area of our lives and transform it in a way that we wouldn't expect if we really looked at who we are in Christ and everything that he says about us, everything that we have as believers, just simply because we're In Christ. We really, I think we really take that for granted. Absolutely. Is there an area you feel like you wrestle with more than others as far as the four sections, categories?
SPEAKER_02:You know, it really varies season to season. I also think they're all pretty interwoven. I think, like I said, like if you really have this scarcity approach to everything, believing that God does not have enough for you or that God cannot provide for you, in the way He's provided for others, that that really will cover everything else in your life and make it hard for you to enjoy really anything, particularly when it comes to your identity. But I'd say this season, it's definitely been a wrestling with my own capacity and feeling like I know it's not all in me and I know it's not all my responsibility and I know that God is going to multiply my little bit of effort and he's going to redeem my best effort. But it's also really hard when you've got little kids who have tangible needs every second of the day and you have to-do list items coming in at the speed of light to not feel like I have failed because I did not check the boxes that I was supposed to check. So maintaining a healthy relationship with those burdens, with those lists and making sure that I'm maintaining really just, yeah, the proper focus of God, you are the one who gives me my assignment and anything beyond that I can release, I think has been, it's been a dance. And I think that's really important to me too. And having these conversations, I've realized, oh, I am not the expert. Like I have not figured it out. I have not just like magically set my gaze on Jesus. And now my life is perfect. And I feel happy all the time. It is a hundred percent. Like I think for everyone, like, Some of these chapters are going to feel like a warm hug of like, you're, you are okay because God's on the throne. And some of them are going to feel like you need to, you need to sit down. Like there's some, there's some pride in your heart that tells you that, that you are the one who calls the shots here that you need to surrender. Yeah. And I have been having both. You know, some days it's like God, God really just wants to affirm that he's got it all in his hand. And today even had some things come across my inbox that I was like, what the heck? Like, this is so crazy. And then there are other places where I feel myself still wrestling with God for that control. And I think that's the journey we're all on. But I think we need together to be not only holding each other accountable, but, you know, participating in that journey. act of kind of lifting each other's gaze up when we get stuck in the weeds
SPEAKER_00:oh my gosh so good and I think we forget I love that you use the word dance because it really is a dance and sanctification is always one step forward and two steps back and I think we want it to look a certain way I think we want it to just be this slow steady moving in one direction and it's like Absolutely not what it looks like. And I think once you come to that place where you recognize that this walking with God thing is all over the place and because we're sinners, I think what we do is we, and this is something that I feel so passionate about. And I think I probably talk about it so much on my podcast, but just this idea of grace, like, um, We live in such a shame-based culture. I know you talk about it in your book, but we live in such a shame-based culture. Even if you look at Instagram comments, everybody's opinions are so loud. Everybody is so critical. The combative spirit, like you talk about in your book, and just the cancel culture and the condemnation, all of it, it's constant. And that's normal for the world. But because as Christians, we're in this sphere of social media... we're coming to this place and believing that that is how we should also live. That shame and condemnation and, you know, this sort of perfectionistic mentality is for us too. And we forget like God's abundant grace. And so I think just reminding, I love to remind people that like in the midst of all of this, when you're feeling like a failure, when you feel like, it's been, you know, a week and you've sucked at being a Christian or whatever you want to call it, that he's like right there in his throne of grace is just so abundantly available to us. And we are the ones that like shut ourselves off. Like even I was just studying, I couldn't even tell you where, but just in the, in the garden, I think it was Nancy Guthrie's book where she talks about this, but in the garden where as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, Their first instinct was to hide. And that's what we do when we sin or we've had a hard day or we feel like a failure is we hide instead of running to the Lord. Yeah. And that mentality is so prevalent, in my opinion, with Christians in our culture today is this, I have to be enough, like you said. Yeah. I have to measure up. I have to come and bring all this to the table. And God's like, no.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and it's all legalism, right? I think legalism can be casually defined as taking God's burdens on ourselves or putting God's burdens on other people. And I think we see that to your point, like Instagram comments, like the world wants to come after the church for having all of these rules. And I really feel like the people who have the most like buyer that I'm like the most scared of when they find my reels or whatever. It's very much like unchurched people who have no interest in religion. You know, it's often like there is such a legalism there too of you need to be perfect and you need to get right and you need to be better. And we do that to ourselves. I think even what you were saying earlier about devotionals is there's this idea that if I don't study God's word in this specific way, God cannot meet me in it and God cannot transform me through it. And it's really just taking burdens and telling God what He is able to do. When I think at the end of the day, to your point, if your heart posture is that you have a good Father that made you and loves you and wants you to flourish, and if you can hand over the reins of what flourishing looks like and how He's going to bring it about and trust that you will be completely and wholly satisfied in it, That is when God can do literally anything in your life. And I think, again, like what you were saying earlier, it's like it's with devotionals as like an analogy. It was like, look, I'm showing up with effort. I'm giving God my little loaves and fishes and letting him do what he wants to with it. Because the posture of my heart is, God, I feel intimidated by scripture and I feel burnt out and exhausted and I do not have an hour. But I want to see what you're going to teach me today and what you can do with this little bit of scripture. Yeah. I think, I think it really is just that posture in your heart that knows God to be gracious. That kind of transforms all the rest.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I love that so much. And I could go on a million tangents, but we're not going to do that. We're going to stay on track. So one of the things that I knew I wanted to talk to you about when I got your book, but I also just following you and seeing some reels that you've shared recently about body image is to hone in on this topic of body image and how Because one, it's so prevalent in our culture today.
SPEAKER_01:It's
SPEAKER_00:very loud on social media. I feel like I'm seeing it more and more every day. And not even just this culture of needing to look snatched or whatever you want to call it. But also this other culture that's emerged to counteract it that is all about body positivity and constantly talking about our bodies and constantly bringing it up. Um, and almost glorifying them in a way that is borderline. I don't know. It's, it's hard for me. And this is why I would love to have this conversation, but because this is something that you've personally struggled with. And I mean, obviously you talk about it in the book. How would you say that your perspective when you were going through it and when you immediately came out of that eating disorder, how has your shifted? How has your perspective on body image and just that, um, culture or mentality from then to now as like a mom of two and just as somebody who's matured.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I am just thinking and being reminded of someone shared a quote with me that I think is really relevant to this conversation. And I'm not sure I'm going to say it right. And I have no idea what the source is. So sorry about all of that. But the quote roughly was self-hatred is just failed self-worship. And I think what you're saying is exactly that. It's like, we either want to idolize our bodies in the sense of, oh, you're so beautiful and perfect and nothing is wrong with you, which is theologically not true. Like I see the heart behind it and it's good, which is, you know, not wanting to hate ourselves, wanting to accept that our bodies don't need to be any which way. Right. But also it's like theologically untrue to say that we are perfect, you know, that our physical fallen broken bodies are are perfect and that they have to be, you know? But then on the flip side, if we fixate on those flaws and if we fixate on that brokenness and we don't allow God to speak into it in the way that he does, if we don't allow him to breathe life into the dust of our bodies like he does when he creates, then we will also get hung up and completely consumed by self-hatred and insecurity. And I think what's so fascinating about eating disorders, again, hindsight is 2020 having gone through it. Is this that you literally are like, you are consuming yourself. Like your body is self-destructing right in front of you. And that's, you, you want that to happen almost like you are, you are saying, I am so unhappy with who I am that I want it to be smaller. I want it to be less. And I don't care what it looks like. And I don't care what it feels like. We are also willing to really sacrifice anything on the altar of looking the way that the world is telling us that we need to. And that was a really hard time in my life. It definitely was not something that I think was 100% my fault. I think so much of it is culture's fault. But then at the same time, there are all these little moments of buy-in along the way where you compromise and you agree with the enemy. And then all of a sudden, you think, at least I did, look, I know this isn't good, but I'm just going to kind of put God over here for a little bit. And I'm going to be over here and I'm going to do things my way. And you think it's like a merry-go-round, right? Like, I'll get off when I'm done and I'll still be here. And it's like, you put yourself on like a high-speed train. And then by the time you know that you are actually... being completely consumed and overtaken by this thing, you are so far away from who you thought you were. And I think that's what I really experienced in that. And the Lord was really gracious to teach me so much about sin and to teach me so much about like, oh yeah, that's not worth it. And anytime the world tells you that it can give you what you're looking for, run, red flag, run. They're lying. It's not going to be what you think it is. It's being sold as something that it's not. And What has been cool about becoming a mom is just my actual lived experience has continued to affirm that in the sense that God made my body to do something really, really beautiful and to partner with Him in this like creative, like in making people, like how crazy is that? And so to realize like, oh yeah, there's plenty that I still struggle with about my body and there's plenty that is hard. But when I look to God and His plans and purposes for my body, I am no longer so burdened by the small imperfections and I am no longer so derailed and so convinced by this narrative that the world is telling. So I don't think I'm alone in that. I think I know a lot of moms who have had a similar experience, but yeah, it's definitely a place that God taught me about. It's so key to have your focus on the right thing.
SPEAKER_00:The right
SPEAKER_02:thing.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I think too, I want to, I'm just curious because personally, It's interesting to talk, and this is why I think it's so important that we do life with other believers, is because we're just all so different, and our experiences are so different, and our perspectives are so different. Because I've never struggled with body image. Thanks be to God. I don't know why. I don't know why. It just wasn't something that... it comes very naturally for me to just not really pay attention. Like, you know, for example, if I'm in a picture and I got my picture taken, I'm not going to look at it and be like, okay, let me shift. Let me do this. Let me do that. Let me take it again. Maybe when I'm pregnant and I'm super swollen, I'm like, do I really look like that? I'm fortunate, you know? And I think that's natural, but I definitely don't, I wouldn't put myself in that category. I definitely think I probably swing to the other side where it's harder for me to, and that's kind of what I was, that I'm seeing is there's these two sides, right? Like there's this self-hatred side, but then there's this self- glorifying side. And we like to do that, you know, as, as people, humans, and we love to do that. We want, we want, it's almost like we want to be on the right side of history. You know, it's like, we want to be morally superior for whatever reason. And in this, in this topic, I find myself, cause have you ever read the book humility by Andrew Murray? Um,
SPEAKER_02:I actually don't know if I've read Humility, but someone was just talking to me about it. I've read a different one of his.
SPEAKER_00:What about like Self-Forgetfulness by Timothy Keller or heard of
SPEAKER_02:it? Yes-ish. I've listened to enough Tim Keller sermons that
SPEAKER_00:I feel like I have. I feel like that whole conversation for me, I can find myself anytime I see any post about body image, even if it's just like a body positivity. You know, I think I see a lot of these like, it's okay to have fine lines and wrinkles at 30. And my mentality is like, Well, duh. Yeah. Like, thank you for telling me. Why do we need to keep bringing this up? And so there's this part of me that's like, is it necessary? Is it, is it, you know, discerning? What does it look like to have a conversation and talk about these things rightly, you know, but not to over-talk about them. Cause then it's at what point are you just still so focused on yourself because you're still harming. So it's right. So anyways, the question that I wanted to ask is, like these biblical things of humility and self-forgetfulness and not thinking too highly of yourself or not thinking too much of yourself. Like
SPEAKER_01:how
SPEAKER_00:should this affect how you view our bodies and just this topic of body image?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Well, and to your point, I think that a big part of why body image, less now for sure, but I could see it, you know, not necessarily like coming back in some form. I think the reason that it's so important seductive for me is just that it's one of those spaces where I think it's so easy for me to believe that I could perfect myself. Like I think everybody has that space where they feel like if I just had this, or if I just did this, then I could have control and I could prove to myself that I'm capable and good. And maybe underneath that, there's a little bit of, and then I wouldn't feel like I needed to surrender to God because And I think for me, that's always just been a place where the enemy has been so able to say, but if you worked out and you followed this new fitness plan, you could probably have this kind of body, right? Or if you did your makeup this certain way and got all of these products, whatever, then you could portray yourself in this certain way. And I think whether it's body image or not, everybody needs to be so aware of like what that thing is for them, where they really some part of their brain believes if they did it perfectly, right? then they could have control of their own life and destiny. But I think you're right. I think it's really just acknowledging that there is this really beautiful thing that Jesus does with a lot of things, which is like exactly what we're talking about. Like, don't hate yourself, like acknowledge the good and beautiful things that God has put in your body and in your DNA and created in you, but also acknowledge that like, that good thing is not the best thing is not the ultimate thing because that's swinging to the other side of that pendulum and saying, I am worthy of worship and I should be the highest authority. My body is the best and most wonderful and most important thing. And that's also not true, but to, to find calm, like just as, you know, like a pendulum, what, like you swing and you swing and you swing. And when it finally finds rest there in that middle, which says, okay, It doesn't really matter that much. Like if I am being faithful and honoring my body and the good thing that God has done in it, and if I'm also not too caught up and consumed with it, then I will be able to rest here and have a healthy approach to what it means to be a physical and embodied human being. And really at the end of the day, everything God has equipped us with is for good works that he has prepared in advance, like it says in Ephesians. So anything that falls outside of doing good works that he has prepared in advance probably doesn't need to be something that really consumes our thinking and our bodies. The way culture talks about our bodies, it's so like ornamental, you know? It's like what you look like in a photo as a 2D image and not what you bring to the table with your giftings and talents and intelligence as a 3D equipped and gifted human being. And I think it's important to think about that.
SPEAKER_00:That's so good. It's so... Timely too, because we're, our church is going through, well, our church is going through the entire book of Romans this year, but we're holding in for the next six weeks on Romans 12, which is the passage where it says like offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, um, talks about us as Christians being, you know, one body, many members, that whole passage. Uh, but today, this morning in my Bible study group, we just broke down verses three through five and it talks, talks about think about Rightly, like don't think too highly of yourself. Think of yourself with sober judgment. And we talked about that and we did end up spinning off and somehow ended up getting on the topic of body image. But I think that it really hits on, it hits the nail on the head in that verse to not think too highly of yourself. Like don't think too much of yourself, but also don't hate yourself because our bodies are temple. We are to care for our bodies. You know, God did make us, we are image bearers, you know, like they matter. But I love the, the visual you gave of the pendulum of like once you come to this place like no think rightly of yourself like think rightly of your body so what does god say about it and i love love love that you brought it back to like at the end of the day like it doesn't really matter that's not something that he focuses on it's not something that's going to affect what you are offer up to the Lord as far as like your obedience, like what you want. It literally has no effect at all. So that's such a good call out. And I think obviously, and I know you mentioned this, that body image is so prevalent because of social media, just the topic, the culture. And so probably because of social media, but I think it's so much deeper than that. Because if we didn't have social media, we would still compare ourselves to other people. We would still see other people around us and we would still look at them and we would still form our own opinions about ourselves. Like that would still happen, right? And you write in your book, you say, comparison leaves us unable to enjoy the abundance of the individualized path God has paved for us. By measuring our lives in relation to others, we deny God's authority over our circumstances. So can you talk more about how when we look at other people's lives as a measuring stick for our own, how this is actually a form of scarcity?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I think I just have been realizing that so much. Again, like the internet makes it all too easy to be like, oh, this random friend that I haven't talked to in 10 years is like way ahead of me in my career. And you're like, wouldn't have known about that if I didn't log on this morning. But now I do. And now it's bothering me. So I think a lot of it is... Through social media being just so prevalent and opening us up to more information than we can possibly process in a healthy way. But beyond that, yeah, I think, you know, sometimes for me, I just have to kind of move slow and go through all of the logical premises of some of these ideas and some of like the emotion that I'm having. So if I'm feeling really inadequate and really far behind, then it kind of helps to go back to God made me as an individual person for something specific. And then we move to, and God is in control of my life and God is guiding me. And as so long as I remain surrendered. So that means, you know, fleeing from sin when sin is identified. And that means giving up your own plan. When you come to those moments of like, feel like you're fighting God, you feel like you're fighting something saying, okay, even if I have to suffer, even if something hard is coming, I know that God's way is going to be the one that leads to abundance and peace. So you said you have these two ideas that God made you for something special and unique. And that God also is in control. And if you can really just sit with those two ideas and you can say, yes, God, I believe both of those things, then you also have to acknowledge that someone else might get somewhere ahead of you. And that has absolutely nothing to do with you. In fact, it might actually be something really cool that God draws out later, like, Some friend of yours gets an opportunity sooner. Well, maybe that friend is at some point down the line going to connect you with someone else that gets you to the place God wants you to go. I think opening up our imagination to the possibilities of what it looks like to be on all different paths, like a million different choose your own adventure books that are all kind of next to each other and knowing that yours is just different. And again, the key is just always going to be a posture of surrender and in light of the fact that God is on the throne and you are not. And I think that has made it a lot easier to just take all of this in stride, to know that my career path and my calling are not necessarily going to be linear. And to, again, just have that one thing, like just have that one thing right, which is believing that God has it all figured out. And if you just trust him with that, then you are going to be surprised in really beautiful ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, and it's, it's, it all goes back to like, every time you talk about one of like the topics and like, they are really are also interwoven because like going back to the very beginning, like you said, if you get on social media, when you see somebody who's way ahead of you, then you have that thought that creeps in. It is a matter of reminding like, okay, well, where's my energy? Where's my identity? And reminding yourself of that. But also you have to be willing to humble yourself and say like that is not the path that i'm on like that's not the path that the lord has me on because if you're too full of yourself or you're too confident in yourself or you're too in control and you're not willing to surrender then it's going to be really hard for you to be like it's okay you know like the lord has me on this path and this is okay this is what it looks like and yeah they're all so interconnected um and i think that that that does go straight into my next question because I think a lot of it comes back to contentment, which is another, which of course this goes along with scarcity and abundance. But I think contentment is such a difficult place to get to, especially in our culture today because our culture, and that is part of like, that's like the theme of this podcast is like just this habitable mentality. And I think we like contentment. to act as if the the burnout what's it called hustle culture like we almost want to act like that's disappeared or that it's not a problem anymore or that like post-covid we've really because you're seeing all these right like sourdough making videos these homemaking videos you're seeing us like visually slow down but are we not still trying to keep up with the joneses by you doing just that right like are we not still trying to look like everybody else and be on the same path as everybody else and make our lives look a certain like we're still trying to do all those things and we're still not content with what our kitchens look like or whatever you know um and I find that contentment is of course at the root of a lot of it so I wanted to ask you because Obviously, I know you have a heart for the person that you're writing to and is somebody who is anxious and burnout and discontent. What advice do you have for somebody who is finding it really hard to find a true contentment in Christ, whether that's in their own body image, whether that's their career or their current season? What advice do you have?
SPEAKER_02:Well, so I think... A verse that has come up throughout my life many times and came up many times throughout the process of writing this book, but I couldn't keep using it every single time, is John 10.10, which says, The thief comes to search, kill, and destroy, but I come to bring life and life to the full. And I think the first question all of us as people who call ourselves followers of Jesus need to ask is, do I believe that? Do I believe that the only form of contentment and joy and abundance is in contentment? Jesus Christ, and that all this other stuff is going to steal the abundance from me. I think first is getting your head around that and then starting to organize your life accordingly. Like just accepting that God's path to abundance for you might have ups and downs, might involve a season of feeling really lost and feeling really confused and really discontent. Can you in those times Truly trust God for abundance. Because I do believe that while Jesus models and while God often leads us through seasons that feel really scarce and really empty and really hard, the beautiful thing about following God is that He does not leave us on our own. And He doesn't say, just tough it out and soon, eventually, I'll make it easy and you'll be happy and it'll be great. He gives us nourishment in the wilderness. He gives us manna in the desert. He gives us things to bring us joy and things to sustain us, even in places that to a human perception and understanding, we would just assume would be miserable and terrible and lonely. Like I really believe that if we allow space for God to meet us in those moments, we will find that there's still abundance there. So I think just really pondering John 10, 10 and the life to the full that Jesus is offering us. And then maybe also spending some time digging into what if God doesn't give me what I want? What if at the end of this, I don't have the future that I'm imagining for myself? Is God still good? And do I trust that He will still ensure that my heart is fully satisfied in Him? And the answer is yes. But I think spending time with that reality is so important to make sure that we are coming at our own lives from a place of health and the surrender that we need to be happy with Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's really, really good. We had a girl come and speak at our church who became paralyzed later in high school from a disease. And you might have seen her on social media somewhere. I had actually seen her on social media once when she came and spoke at our church. But she talked about this very thing of, okay, because she was a follower of Jesus. And when she... became paralyzed. And she was like, I was seeing all these stories of, you know, victory and redemption and stuff in the church. And she said, I was just really waiting for that to happen in my life. I was expecting for that to happen in my life. And she said, and you know, I read about like abundance in the Bible and God's fullness and all that stuff. And she was like, I, but I wasn't, I wasn't like experiencing that. She said, but it was in the midst of the suffering and the depth of, you know, discouragement and confusion that he met her we want to get out of the suffering and so then we can experience all that god has for us all the joy all of this and she said no like victory is in the suffering joy is in the suffering it coexists there because of the hope that we have in christ and it like you've said like it's just a matter of trusting that He's going to meet us there and that he has a plan and that he does, he does in some form or fashion plan to redeem us. And of course we have the hope of redemption after, right? Of just our glorified bodies and all of that. But as humans, like on earth, I loved that because I think there are a lot of people that are just waiting to get to the other side. And that's when they feel like the Lord is, that's when his abundance is going to show up or what have you. And it's like, the other quote that comes to my mind is, or it's not a quote, but just this idea of maybe he's brought you to that place because he just wants more of you. Like he wants you and your time and your presence. Cause obviously we're going to spend probably more time on our knees in prayer when we're in desperation than we would in another season. And I love that too, because he does just want us, you know? And so I love that. That was so good.
SPEAKER_02:That's so good. I think that's so, I mean, just even thinking about, I think we think of our lives as in some way like the final destination. Like there is a final moment where everything's going to feel so good and perfect and we did it. And then, yeah, we get to experience God's abundance. But it's like, no, like the final victory is when we're in heaven. So we get glimpses of that victory, but we should not expect that every single victory will be experienced here. And I think it's really telling of sort of how we understand God reality and how we understand God when we start to really think about what is victory to me. And that's when we start to expect full and complete healing of every single thing tomorrow or else God's not good. Or full and total resolution to every conflict next week. Or all of my finances and all of my debt will be erased. Like God promises all of these things, but it's all in the grand scheme of eternity. not in the grand scheme of your one 75 to 80 year life. So again, I think we, yeah. And that's the whole thing is like staying focused on the great arc of God's plan for humanity and not to get so myopic with the details of our own lives. Cause there's so much purpose and meaning in placing ourselves in the big story. And there's so much anxiety that comes from centering everything around our our own day to day and nothing else. So that's really, honestly, I think my heart for the whole book. And I'm glad you shared that because that's really, really beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:Great place to land. Solid. Okay, good stuff. So finally, tell us where we can find you. When does your new book come out? All the details. Anything else you want to add?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So I am mostly on Instagram at Whitney Pearson Lowe. It used to be Scrabble Divas. I recently changed it. Very scary. But anyway, yes, on Instagram. And my book, Set Your Eyes Higher, a 40-day reset to slow your anxiety and fix your focus on God, that launches on September 24th. So it's available for pre-order now. I'm so thankful for the people who want to read it. But yeah, it's all coming up in the next few weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome. I will make sure to link all the details down below. Thank you so much for chatting with me. This has been so good.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. It's been so great. I think we are kindred spirits. So it's really fun to be able to talk to you a little bit, Justine. And yeah, awesome time.