Going Deeper
The Going Deeper podcast challenges cultural norms from a Christ-centered perspective. We discuss topics spanning the entire spiritual-secular spectrum from social media and individualism to fasting and scripture memory. Come burdened by the noise and pressure of a 'have-it-all' world---leave refreshed and encouraged to go deeper in your relationship with God!
Going Deeper
Screen Addictions, Dumb Phones, and Choosing the Better Portion with Lauren Bowerman
In this episode, I’m joined by Lauren Bowerman to talk about the pull of digital distractions and what led her to make the switch to a dumb phone. We dive into the heart behind her decision, how it’s impacted her daily life and relationships, and what it looks like to pursue a quieter, more intentional life in a noisy world.
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SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Going Deeper. This podcast challenges the cultural status quo and societal norms keeping us from a deep life of faith. Discussing topics all across the spiritual secular spectrum from social media and consumerism to fasting and scripture memory. Come burdened by the constant stimulation and have it all mentality of modern culture. Leave refreshed and encouraged to go deeper in your relationship with God. Welcome back to the Going Deeper podcast. You guys, I'm excited. I have a guest with me today. This is Lauren Bowerman. Lauren is a wife, mom of two, writer, poet, editor. She's the creative content manager at Journeywoman Ministries, which we'll talk a little bit about in a moment because that's kind of how I know her. And she holds a master's in Christian and intercultural studies from Southeastern Seminary, which is so cool. Lauren, thank you so much for joining me and taking time out of your evening to chat with me.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_01:For those that don't know, which nobody knows is actually, we've recorded this once. So we're trying to... Take two. Yeah, take two. And I'm praying that the Lord will redeem this conversation. So first, we're going to start with some rapid fire icebreaker questions because we don't know each other that well. We're just now getting to know each other, but people may not know you either. So we're going to start with a rapid... rapid fire icebreaker questions. And then we're going to jump right into the topic of digital distraction, dumb phones, the whole nine yards. So are you, are you ready? Okay. We've got new ones this time. Okay. Cause this one's easy. Coffee or tea? Coffee. I'm saying AT. Do you like
SPEAKER_00:tea? I do like tea. I actually thought about making it. Okay. You would
SPEAKER_01:choose coffee. Okay. Hot or ice? Okay. I do love Hawkeye. Okay. Early bird or night owl? Oh.
SPEAKER_00:Oh. I think I used to be a night owl and now I just can't sleep in past like seven. I wish I had that problem. I
SPEAKER_01:can sleep all day. I just am a sleeper. I'm a big sleeper. Totally a night owl. And I wish I weren't. I wish it were the other way around.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know what it was. I hit my 30s and it was just like, well...
SPEAKER_01:Well, I turned 30 this year, so maybe... Maybe the tables will turn.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Kind of hope not. I
SPEAKER_01:don't know. Dream vacation destination. Greece. Okay. That's a great one. I think for me, it would be the Swiss Alps or Banff, Canada. A book you recommend to everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Ooh, that's a good question. Um, the first one that comes to mind is actually one I haven't read in a while, but it's one that, um, I read in post-grad days by Kevin DeYoung, Just Do Something. It's about that. Yes, it's so good. I recommend it to every college student. Is it the guy that's
SPEAKER_01:sitting in the chair and he's looking
SPEAKER_00:out into the water? Yes. Okay. It's just so, it's just kind of about God's will and what it is and what it isn't. And it's very freeing, I would say, especially in that season where you know, college post-grad, you're like, what am I doing with my life? What is God's will for my life? Who am I going to marry? All those huge questions and reading it was just kind of like an exhale. Okay, take the pressure off because you're not going to mess up God's will.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Yeah, I've seen that. That's a good one. Okay, what's your go-to comfort meal?
SPEAKER_00:Probably if I have the time to make it half-baked harvest, sun-dried tomato, orzo. It has like 17 descriptor words. Creamy orzo with bacon on top. Chicken. That sounds delightful.
SPEAKER_01:Yum. I love all things pasta. All things dairy. Gluten, dairy. Wonderful things. Bacon. You can't mess that up. A song that's currently on repeat.
SPEAKER_00:I'm one of those weird people that I don't listen to music in the car and don't really have it I guess if I'm playing music in the house I've been in a John Mark McMillan phase because we just saw him in concert I don't know who that is oh he wrote um you probably know how he loves it was like 2010s um he wrote that song and then has also written a lot of other beautiful ones Skeleton Bones anyway so I've been playing just his songs on repeat and it's just he's a Christian writer and just really moody feeling and Okay,
SPEAKER_01:I like Andrew Peterson. I like that vibe, so maybe I would like him. Okay, so we've got four more. If you could live in an era of history, what would
SPEAKER_00:it be? This isn't really historical, really. My husband says if I could go to any other place, it would be the 70s, and I would be a hippie.
SPEAKER_01:Shut up. I love that. I totally, I joke, because I'm from Washington State. Military, you get that? We talked about that in the previous episode that did not air, obviously. But I was totally... Well, people in Washington, you know, just the West Coast, their own country almost sometimes, especially like the Northwest, the Pacific Northwest. So all of my friends were total hipsters. Just like underground grunge music. Like that was what you did. So I love that you said the hippie. What's your ideal day off look like?
SPEAKER_00:Being outside, reading, drinking coffee. I'm trying to just like combine all my favorite things. Probably like going to a coffee shop. Honestly, too, I feel like a good balance of being with my family and being alone. Oh, yeah. When I'm alone, I'm like, oh, I miss them. And then when I'm with them, I'm like, I just need a little time so I can be better for you. A hundred
SPEAKER_01:percent. A hundred percent. Who was I just talking to about that? I don't know. Maybe it was you or somebody else, but they were talking. Oh, it was... somebody at my work and they were talking about going on their first vacation to the Dominican Republic with their husband, like away from their kids. It was a week long. And I was telling them, I'm like, I think that I want that. And then I will be gone away from my kids for like half a day. Like, okay, I'm ready. I'm just looking at pictures of them anyway on my phone. So last thing that made you laugh or cry. If you're a crier, I know some of my friends are like, like laugh so hard I cry or honestly,
SPEAKER_00:whatever, either one. I, I can't even remember like a specific thing, but our daughter has just gotten so silly and funny lately. And how old is she? She turned two in April. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:so she's going to be spite. Is she spunky? He
SPEAKER_00:has a lot of personality. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's been so fun, though. She does this monkey dance where usually she's in just a pull-up, and so her hair is wild. I feel like anything that she does just makes me cackle.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. Our two-year-old is almost three. She'll be three in August, and she is sass, just the epitome of sass. And I thought that it would get old, and it just doesn't. It's just hilarious. These are so tiny. Yes. And her hair is wild as well. It's just like this stringy. She looks like, oh, there's an old 80s singer that my father-in-law always says she looks like. Because it's just like, yeah, she's a mess. That's what we call her. She's a mess. I love it. Okay, the final one is, what's something people might be surprised to learn about you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, man. Like, did you ask me this the last time and I had a good answer for it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, last time, not to answer for you, but you brought up, which was a cool mutual thing. You brought up how many times you've moved. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Which is a lot. And I have tried to write it down before and it's overwhelming, but it's over 20.
SPEAKER_01:Where were you born?
SPEAKER_00:Florida.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that was like, we were there for like a year. Your dad was Air Force, right? Okay. Georgia, Korea. Yep. Okay.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:so my dad was so this is what's interesting is my dad went to korea and my mom did not want to go to korea so we stayed back on in the states so he went to korea he went to well i think i think south korea was the only place where we could have gone with him the other ones of course were tours but
SPEAKER_00:yeah it was probably the similar one it was a really short assignment but we chose to like uh i don't know they can't have a name for it go solo like come
SPEAKER_01:with him Yeah, that's so cool. I almost kind of wish we would have gone. I think that would have been a really cool cultural experience. And I think that I would have... I know you have intercultural studies from Southeast, which is so cool that you pursued that area and focused. But I wonder if I had the opportunity to go abroad, if I would have more of an interest in the missions and intercultural... I mean, I do have a desire to learn more about missions, but I wouldn't say as... as strongly
SPEAKER_00:as you kind of have. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like in some ways, especially when I was graduating college, by that point I had moved like 19 times, I don't know. And it was just almost like I felt more comfortable in the new place. Like it was easier for me to pick up and go and start over and experience new culture than it was for me to stay.
SPEAKER_01:Now, do you feel like that now? I
SPEAKER_00:think it's kind of flipped. And now sometime after getting married and we also had a series of like a lot of moves and a lot of, hard experiences surrounding all of those moves. And so after that, I was like, you know, I'm kind of feeling for the first time that I want to stay. And it's a different muscle that I hadn't used before, but yeah, being in one place, it's only, I mean, it's been four years that we've been here. So the, I mean, my little itch might start scratching again, but for now I hope you stay for a while.
SPEAKER_01:That's like very similar to, to my story as well. Like moved my whole life and it wasn't up until about four or five years. I mean, we moved, um, to this town, Beau is four, but we lived with our father-in-law for like eight months while we were looking for a house. So it would have been almost five years that we've been in one town. Like this is the longest I've ever, well, I say it's the longest, it's the longest I've ever lived in one house. Wow. But I think that we, no, I wouldn't say, no, it's not the longest though. This is the longest that I've lived in one town because we, even when we were in Washington, we would bounce from, you know, around inside of a state. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:So.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, that kind of leads into the first question, of course, which I'll kind of talk a little bit about after this, kind of why I reached out and just this topic and just make that connection. But kind of tell, for those that don't know you, a little bit about who you are and just your story.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So currently living in Birmingham, Alabama with my husband and our two kids, which even saying that feels... baffling to me because like when I say kids Earl because we actually prayed and hoped and waited for a long long time I mean it was four years I know people know that's a long time yeah but
SPEAKER_01:that's a long time
SPEAKER_00:long enough to cause a lot of pain and yeah and so we have Charlotte who's a little over two and James who is almost four months and they are just the sweetest And so that is a really sweet part of our story. I, um, yeah, like I said, I grew up military home. We moved every couple of years and, um, I would say like my parents took us to church. We went to Awanas and all those things, but it wasn't until middle school that I came to know the Lord and really grew in college specifically and just loving his word and loving teaching his word, uh, It's funny. I think back to like the first Bible study I ever led in college. We decided to go through the book of Isaiah. I don't know why we did. Tough one. I probably taught so much heresy to these little freshman girls. We all did. We all did. It stressed us a little bit. Also, if I taught Isaiah today, that would be... I'd have a hard time not being heretical at some point because it's just a hard book. Yeah, it's a very hard book. But yeah, graduating from college, the only thing I could think of that I wanted to pursue studying more was the Bible and learning how to teach it and be more equipped. And I wanted to go overseas and be a missionary. And that was the one track mind. Go to seminary, go overseas. I
SPEAKER_01:love that.
SPEAKER_00:That was what you
SPEAKER_01:wanted to do, though. What was that? I love that that's what you wanted to do.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yeah. And it's interesting because I don't think I found out and I don't think I realized about myself until later. that a lot of my desire to go overseas was because that felt more comfortable to me. Like I said, like the moving, the going to a different culture, like that just felt so easy to me. We lived in Germany. You didn't have to be known. Yeah. There was just something about it. I was just like, this is, yeah, this is it. And after graduating seminary, for some reason, all of the doors opened. to go overseas were closing and I had a free place to live in Birmingham, Alabama. And I was like, Hey, I guess I'll move here. And I worked at a popsicle shop and there was a lot of like grumbling and like, Lord, why am I here? Um, but I think in that he showed me that he hadn't necessarily, at least for me, he hadn't called me to a place, but he had called me to a role of teaching the word and investing in discipling and the people that were in my life. And at that time that was college students at our church. And, um, People that I met were working at the Popsicle shop and it was, yeah, there was a lot of grumbling that came with that, but also a lot of clarity, I think, as I realized like, yeah, what God was calling me to. And anyway, I think I like blew through my, um, I love a 30 foot view. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And so here we are now, there was a lot of moving in between after I got married to my husband, Matthew, um, we were in ministry for a while and, um, Now we're here back in Birmingham. Now he's a pastor still, right? Was he a pastor? He was. So there's a lot more to it. But we moved to Colorado after we got married six months into our marriage to plant a church. And we actually planted a church in Colorado in February of 2020. Sometimes I just like do a dot, dot, dot and let it sit as people are like, oh, oh, oh. You mean like weeks before the pandemic? Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so it kind of just fell apart, crashed and burned, you know, everything in 2020 was just chaotic. And so there was just a lot of, a lot of pain, a lot of hurt during that year revolving around our ministry experience. And so he ended up stepping away for a time. And so now I'm not a pastor's wife. So I mean, there's a lot in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, a lot of like entity shifting. Yeah. A lot of identity shifting. And now you're a mom.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And there's a big shift too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, so I'm curious, how did you, well, and I'll, for those that don't know, so making the connection. So it's funny to kind of back up for a moment. I had been, I have been doing podcasting as a hobby slash whatever you want to call it joy for like five years now since 2019, but it's molded and shifted and all of that over time. Um, And I would say three years ago, I kind of got to this place where I felt a little stuck. And I remember kind of praying for direction slash a connection. I just felt like this is the this is where I want to lean. This is what I want to lean into as this area, this industry. And I felt like I knew nobody. I knew nobody that knew anything about podcasting or whatever. And I remember it was not very long that, it was not longer after that prayer and that thought that I went to MOPS, my first meeting ever. I think, was it my first meeting? Or maybe it was my second year. I can't remember. But Kimberly, so Kimberly Wooten, for those that don't know, what is her actual title at Journeywoman? Communications? I don't know, but she did. I think it's like communications something. It's a float. Yeah. He does it all. Wear of hats. Right. So she works for Journeywoman. Well, I remember... getting a text and they were like, a new girl has joined our table. Her name's Kimberly. And it was just kind of like send a brief bio. And Kimberly was like, I work for journey women. I'm like, what? I know journey women. They listened to that podcast in the past. What? Somebody that is a connection that knows a little bit about this world. And what's really cool is that it's taken three years, but I actually sat down with Kimberly a couple of days ago. So shout out to you if you're listening. Girl, thank you. But I sat down and I was able to really pick her brain on podcasting and just all of the stuff that she's learned along the way because she's worked with Hunter and Journeywoman for a while now. And so I wanted to ask, or let me just before I jump into that question, I, of course, I think when I met Kimberly, I was like, oh, I'm going to look into like Journeywoman and more. And I discovered that you work for them and I started following you on Instagram. And that's when I kind of followed a little bit along your journey and your story with infertility and your writing. And I really resonated with a lot of the things that you wrote, especially just in you wrestled with a lot of the things that I've wrestled with, with writing. We talked about that and we can get into it more and like digital distraction and screen time usage and getting a light phone or a dumb phone. And so flash forward to a few weeks ago when I was sort of wrestling with this issue that I find myself wrestling with often. I started thinking, man, I really want to talk about this. I want to have somebody on who we can have a conversation about it. And you popped in my mind because not long prior, I'd seen on Instagram where you had shared that you were waiting for your light phone to come in. And I was like, oh, she's making the switch to a light phone. I want to talk to her just more about that decision. And because I knew you through Kimberly, that's kind of how all this has come together. So I kind of wanted to ask that leads into just tell a little bit about your journey with migrating towards more like digital minimalism, digital, just like just being aware of that and wanting to actually make change.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I really started feeling the tension and we had talked about this about like with writing and like, do I share publicly? What do I share publicly? What's the point of like putting myself out there on media and just feeling a lot of tension there. And then it wasn't until like, let's see, when was my daughter born? 2023. She's two years old. I can't do math. Oh, me neither. She was about four years old. And I simply remember the moment in sitting in her nursery and she's laying there under her little activity arch, being all adorable. And I look over at my phone to check the time or something and find myself scrolling on whatever, Instagram probably. And I like looked right over her at her and she's just staring up at me with her big blue eyes. And I'm like, What am I doing? Like, I know the days are long and like, especially when they're so little, you're like, there's minimal interaction sometimes as far as like engagement. But I was still like, I've made so hard for these days. And now I'm just like, kind of like missing, missing some of it, missing her. And I, I know she was so young in that moment, but she's two years old now. She'll be six. She'll be 10. She'll be a teenager. Yeah. And I just had this conviction that I never want her to have to fight for my eyes or my attention or feel like something else is more important than her, especially in those really hard moments. And not even just her, but my husband, my friends. It was just one of those moments where it kind of shifted for me. And all of a sudden, I realized how many ways my phone pulled me away from the people that I loved and made me a less present person. Even, yeah, even just in conversations with friends where it's like, you hear the text, you hear the notification. And even for a second, like you're at, you kind of, you know, look away and then it just does something to that relationship, to that moment.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we were even in Chick-fil-A today at the playground tonight at dinner and we were inside, we'd eaten, we were inside the play area and there was a dad sitting inside with us, me and my husband were sitting there. We had our seven month old and the two and four year old were playing in there. And there was his daughter, two daughters were in there and he was sitting there and playing a game on his phone, like not paying attention at all. Now, granted, you know, I understand that they're playing. You don't have to be doing anything. You don't have to stare at them the whole time. So, but yeah, I do, I think for me, when I look at that, and this is the thought that I have in my head is, am I teaching my kids that when there is an idle moment, I don't know how to, I can't be just idle and sit in the boredom and the awkwardness of silence?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yeah. Yeah, because they pick up on so, so much. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I feel like there was a moment at the park a couple weeks ago in, there was a little girl on a swing and her mom was pushing another little kid. And she started looking at something on her phone and the little girl who's, I don't know, seven or eight. She was like, mom, mom, mom. And like, kept asking me, I want to show you something. I want to show you something. And the mom was just kind of on her phone. And like, I was just watching the little girl. And I just, I saw the moment that her face like fell when she realized her mom wasn't going to look. She was like, okay, I guess I'll just kind of like went off. And I was like, oh, I mean, it could be important things that you're distracted by too. Right, right. But like, how often do I let that moment happen before I'm like, something needs to really change with my present? I think that's the biggest thing that comes to mind for me is like, our presence is so important in being a present person. And when you're not, I think it just, it has a huge effect on our relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever read the book, Present Over Perfect by, is that Shauna Nyquist? Yep. Okay. Did you ever read that? I don't think I did. I read a lot of her other books, though. I do like her writing. It was a really good book. I read that prior to having kids. And I do think that that influenced me. And it was a really influential book for me during that time period because it really opened my eyes to how much I wasn't aware of my present moment. I was very future-focused or even past-focused, tomorrow-focused, and just not today. And it really opened my eyes to... being more aware. Even Jesus talks about that, you know, like there are just plenty of worries. There are enough worries for today, you know? Yeah. I actually, I'll keep the story really brief, but it's stuck with me and it happened a few months ago. We, yeah, to make a very long story short, we were like really struggling financially and just been really praying and just trusting that the Lord was going to provide. And we were working through some of like the Dave Ramsey baby steps and and trying to cut back on our expenses and we wanted to get rid of our car payment which we only had one car payment and so we were working through that and figuring out how we could pay it off and so we were like oh we'll sell it and we'll get an older van i'm so i'm so about the van life i'm here i'm here for
SPEAKER_00:it
SPEAKER_01:are you okay so are you you're totally somebody that could do a van
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes. Okay. Sliding doors. I
SPEAKER_01:think that's what
SPEAKER_00:gets
SPEAKER_01:me. Yes. It was what sold my husband was the sliding doors for sure. For sure. There's so much practicality to a van. Well, anyways, so we were like, oh yeah, we'll just find like a cheap three,$5,000 one on Facebook marketplace for the hundred thousand miles. It'll be great running into the ground. Well, I have a mentor in my life who years ago shared a story with us about how the Lord had provided, had shown up in a really big way. when they had young kids and somebody gave them a car. And that story has always stuck with me. Yeah. Well, flash forward to when we were figuring out the whole car situation, wanting to sell it, wanting to look for a van. There was a moment where in my mind, I remembered that story. It popped in my head. I was like, wow, wouldn't it be cool if somebody gave us a car? Wouldn't it be cool if somebody gave us a van? But I never prayed for it. I never prayed for it. Because that felt, it's a scary thing to pray for. It's a scary thing to pray for. Yeah. But I also just felt like, no, that doesn't happen. Nobody's going to give us a van. Yeah. Well, a week or so later, I'm hanging out with a bunch of friends and one of the girls in my group is telling a story. And she was like, yeah, I just, I was trying to get this girl to take this free van and she didn't want it. And I was like, hold on, free van? I'm like, is that so, like, is that a real thing? And she's like, yeah, you want it? And I was like, What? So I, yeah. So I get into contact with this girl, one of her friends, who has five kids. And no joke, I was just like, is this legitimate? Or are we talking about just like a junkyard piece of sheet metal? Like, what is this? And it was, we call her Daisy the Dodge Caravan, okay? She's 2005. She's got some rust. And I also just ran over a Target cart yesterday. And now she's got a dent.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But she's a beauty. Well, anyway, so we go to pick it up. And they were like, yeah, we can't get it to start. But my husband's mechanical. So I'm like, okay. So sorry, this is a long story, but I'm coming to a point here. So he gets it to start. And I'm like, oh, wow. And she's communicating. She's so sweet. And she goes, man, we really, somebody gave us this van. We want to give it to you. The Lord always provides. And I was like, wow. Anyways, we're talking. Maybe five minutes goes by. And she gets really emotional. All of her kids are playing outside. All of our kids are playing with her kids. And she's like probably 37, 36. And she goes, I don't want to be this annoying older mom trying to give advice to the younger mom. She goes, well, can I just tell you something? And I was like, anything. Yeah. And she goes, put your phone down. And I was like, whoa. And she goes, I... have so many regrets about having my phone up during the little years because she goes, I just, I want, I, I wasn't looking at their faces. That's what she said to me. And it just like really hit me in that moment. And I think about that frequently. Cause I'm like, that was her one piece of advice that she gave me as a mom of five older kids. So yeah. Sorry to make that rabbit trail,
SPEAKER_00:but that just like makes it sink in from like the other side.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. Okay. So yeah. What would you say, what influenced you in sort of, because I am somebody that naturally sort of like a challenger of culture. I'm like, if somebody is doing this, I just want to do the opposite. That's just my personality. So getting a light phone, I mean, that's pretty countercultural, you know? So what kind of has sparked your interest in doing, making the decision to get a light phone, but also just kind of like jumping over the ledge when most people are kind of like, you know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think for me, it just felt like, I don't know. I just think, I think I realized my own lack of self-control because I've tried to do the, like believe in the app phone and minimizing it, making it off race scale, you know, all the little tricks you can do to kind of dumb down your phone. But I, I kind of see my own lack of self-control in that area and that I can add the app back. I can, it's still, I didn't feel like it really worked. was aggressive enough for me, I guess. And maybe I just like him an all or nothing kind of person. Oh, I totally agree. To like just cut it off completely. Yeah. Because then there wasn't the pull. There wasn't the choice of like, oh, do I download the app? Do I want to? It's just like, oh, there's no internet on your phone. There's no infinite ease.
SPEAKER_01:It's almost easier in a way to, yeah, to not have the option. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, it takes away the decision fatigue of like, well, because it takes away what I wrestle with right now is the kind of going back and forth, the tension of I've kind of made up my mind that I'm not going to get a light phone, at least for right now. That could change in the future. But so I've dumbed down my phone. Like you said, I've done all the things and I do feel as though it's helped me a lot. However, I have to, I live in that tension because I don't have a light phone, right? That does cut off my ability to have Safari and all of those things. but were, were there any like speakers or books or like scripture or anything, or was it truly you got to a point that story you told where you were like, I'm cutting off my arm per se, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I think it had, I think it had been building a lot up until that point. Um, I was thinking back on some of the books that I had read that had really influenced me. And I, I remember a couple of books that I read, I think it might've been like 2019, 2020. Um, There were two of them. There was one by Adam Alter called Irresistible. And now it was more like petty research, a lot of statistics. Probably like, I haven't read Anxious Generation yet, but- I want to read that. I've read research for that. There was another one- I've never heard of that. Price called How to Break Up with Your Phone. And that one was- I know that one. And it was practical. And I remember reading those and being like, this is like- Okay. Like I'm realizing the ways my phone might not be the best. But then more recently I read Andy Crouch's How to Find the Life We're Looking For. Or maybe it's just the life we're looking for, but it's about relationship in a technological world. Ooh, that sounds like a good one. Yeah. And I just, I love the way he wrote it. I want to read that now. Digital Liturgies was another one. That was like a more recent one.
SPEAKER_01:I've never heard of any of these books.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. I'll just like send you all the links.
SPEAKER_01:Heck yeah. I'll now add them into
SPEAKER_00:the show notes. Yeah. So there were like a lot of books, I think that were just kind of like gradually kind of shaping me, me like, okay, maybe, maybe there's something to this. And that moment was definitely a shift for me. And I think too, I was thinking back on like some scriptures that I think about, I'm thinking about this, distraction and attention that we give to phones. And I was thinking about this story at the end of Luke 10, where with Mary and Martha, and it's probably a little bit of a stretch of a comparison because Martha was all distracted with serving. And now I think it's a spot on one. I just, I think it just haunts me when I think about it in the context of our distractions. When Jesus says, what does he say? He says like, Mary chose the better thing. And maybe it was better portion, I think is the word. Yeah, better portion. And what was that better portion? It was literally her just sitting and offering her present to Jesus. And oh man, like what was Martha missing out on? What am I missing out on when I am just like filling my time with what?
UNKNOWN:And half the time it's,
SPEAKER_00:It's nothing important that I am losing my attention to. It really breaks my heart when I think about how much time I devote.
SPEAKER_01:When that story of Martha and Mary, and he says, Martha, you're anxious about many things, but Mary is choosing the better portion by sitting at his feet. And it does make you think, are we, when we're pulling up our phones constantly. Cause that's what to your, to your point about things being meaningless. It's, is there good? Yes. Are there, is it a, one of those things where like, there's a lot of ways we could use it. That is gives glory to God. Yes. Uh, but I think 90% of the time, if we look at our screen usage or if we, if we, if we really break it down, a lot of us just being in able to be bored or to not have silence or solitude, uh, You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's where I find myself wanting to push back and be like, why can't I sit and watch my kids play in Chick-fil-A without pulling my phone? Why can't I stand in line at Starbucks? And you know what I'm saying? It's like almost wanting to just challenge the inability to be bored or for something to hold my attention for a long period of time, you know? Yes. It's like
SPEAKER_00:that fear of stillness and silence. And yeah, I think... That scares me. I noticed when I, the times that I have been on my light phone for a long period of time that I do become a lot more comfortable with those moments, but it's so crazy how like quick I am to still want to reach for something. Like my light phone has nothing entertaining on it, but there are still times when I have that moment. of quiet or boredom or whatever that I'm like reaching for. And I'm like, is there something
SPEAKER_01:on here I can look at? It's almost like it is so habitual. It's muscle memory. Yeah. Yeah. And I
SPEAKER_00:think sometimes too, we're just kind of like scared to be bored. We're scared to be quiet and listen to what's on our hearts and our minds. And I think, I mean, a lot comes up if you just like set a timer for 15 minutes and sit in silence, like things come up and you're, emotions your fears anger conversations with God like I feel like a lot of times when I sit down and pick up my phone and like start scrolling maybe not a lot but often there are those moments where I'm feeling something I'm like I just need to like not have anything in my mind I'm gonna scroll and it's like I'm avoiding whatever it is that's coming up and I think sometimes we feel that that's easier if we're not facing the whatever emotion is or we feel like we can't bring whatever that is to God. And I think, I think that's a huge loss when we aren't able to sit in our own discomfort and silence. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I want you to talk to about, you said this the last time we recorded and it was really eyeopening to me about how, okay. Using that example, it's been a long day. You just want to numb out on your phone or even you're having a hard moment. You have 15 minutes of just doing nothing and, And so you have a choice of how you're going to fill it. You could either do nothing and just be content with that, read a book, you could do something edifying, or you could pray, right? Bring whatever's on your heart to the Lord. But oftentimes, to your point, we choose to scroll or to numb out. And what I love, so to kind of talk into what you said about how when we are choosing that, a lot of times, especially if we're on social media, we're feeding our anxieties to which isn't going to help us. We think it's going to ease, but in the longterm, it doesn't. It causes more stress, more anxiety because we're consuming all this noise.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yes. Yeah. Like I think I was talking about how just like our, what we choose to do with our time, like really does have a shaping effect on us. And like at the end of the day, yeah, I think, you know, we look at our screen time and we're like, Oh my gosh, it's four hours. Like what could I have been doing with that four hours before? I should have been praying. I should have been sitting and having a deep scripture time. I should have been, you know, redeeming it in some like really beautiful spiritual way. And that's awesome. If you do like nix all your screen time and replace it with prayer, do that if you can. But I think too, like there, there are so many ways that we are shaped by how we spend our time. And it's like, if I have an hour after I put it down to bed, I could spend it scrolling and like, Thinking that I'm finding rest in that time of like numbing out and just reels. But I'm actually filling my mind with more things that are going to contribute to my own anxiety. Like, oh, I just scrolled through six different parenting reels about all the ways that I'm doing it wrong. And this person is doing it right. And I need to, you know, fix that. Or, oh, I just saw eight pictures of people reading their Bibles. And now I feel guilty because I'm not reading my Bible. You know, it's just like, I think I'm getting rested. by sitting here on my phone, but I'm actually just like piling on the opinions and perspectives in comparison with the person that I see who's hanging out with my friend that I'm not hanging out with. And it's like, instead, maybe I put the phone away, maybe I pray, maybe I read my Bible, or maybe I pick up my knitting needles and do something restful with my mind that will help me to wake up tomorrow with a more refreshed soul. Like, I just have seen in myself the difference that it makes when I do first, or if I sit down and try to sew a hideous dress that my daughter's not going to wear, but I spend an hour doing something with my hands. I don't know. That's
SPEAKER_01:such a good point. I just, I love that, that yes, I think in our minds, we can look at our screen time usage and think, oh my goodness, yes, That's four hours I could be spent doing this spiritual thing or that spiritual thing, which to your point, yeah, we could probably all up the amount of time we're spending with the Lord and in prayer and in spiritual disciplines. I mean, you can't go wrong there. But to your point, you could also have the perspective of, but I could do this. I could do something that is fun, that is fulfilling, that's going to fill my cup in a different way that is restful, that is joyful, that in turn will allow me to, like you said, wake up feeling rejuvenated or even just at peace or more content than we would if we had chosen the noise or the whatever you see on social media. Like that we think like when you're sitting there, yes, you're physically relaxed, but you're mentally filling your mind with all sorts of stress and I think every time I get on social media, I see something that I didn't want to see or I hear something that I didn't want to hear. And I'm like, oh, I wish that wouldn't have popped up in my
SPEAKER_00:feed. Right. It's never neutral. Like it just, there's always an effect. And even like the good things that come from it, like I think connection is one of the reasons that I stay on social media. Ah, there's all these people that I love to connect with. And then I'm like, okay, what am I actually connecting with them? Or like the people that I say I want to connect with, could I just pick up the phone and call them instead of like consuming their life from a distance? Yeah. And yeah, I think we just kind of trade the pseudo connection that we think we're getting for something that just kind of leaves us feeling a little empty and frustrated.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I don't think we were ever meant to be aware of everything that we're aware of. but we're all, I don't think we were also meant to know as many people as we know and know what's going on in their lives and the comparison trap. I think, I think there's a lot of us that we probably struggle with it more than others, but I also think at a baseline, we all subconsciously are comparing ourselves to other people's lives when we get on our phones. It's like our brain just does it naturally. It's just looking and comparing and it's, you said this earlier, but it's without us even realizing it, it is shaping and molding our perspectives and our beliefs and our values without us even realizing that it's happening.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, man. Okay. So the next question, let's see. What, what are some daily rhythms or habits, you know, and obviously you switched to a light phone, but do you have any sort of boundaries in place for any other habits things, you know, like Netflix or your laptop or, cause obviously our phones are not the only form of digital distraction. So.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I, I think a big shift that we, somebody, when we got married, gave us a free TV, speaking of people giving you free things and you're like, I can't believe like the fact that people would give you something like that. Um, I mean, it's not like an amazing TV, but they gave it to us when we got married and, um, For a while, we had it in our main living area. And one of my really intentional things that I wanted to do when we had kids was to not have it in our main living space. So we don't have a TV. And so that's not usually my go-to option anyway. My husband, he's more of a show guy. I'll watch a movie in a while, but I just don't really get into shows. But I also just didn't want it to be something that we had on all the time or that we just went to when we were bored. I wanted it to be an intentional thing. Like the other day we brought it out and we tried to watch Harry Potter with our two-year-old daughter. She could not have cared less. I've
SPEAKER_01:so been there. Yeah. It's a great movie. You will love this. We will go to Harry Potter world instead of Disneyland. Yes. Pick a team. Hufflepuff. What's actually really funny is I've told my friend this. I've taken the sorting hat test like four times. Yeah. Every time I get Slytherin.
SPEAKER_00:Really? Hey, Slytherins aren't all bad. I don't know. I'm a Hufflepuff, so.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, one of the things that it describes, one thing, and I don't know if this is what, I'm just going to say this is what it is because it makes it look better than what me being Slytherin. But it talks about like people in Slytherin are extremely protective of their people to the point where they'll like kill people. If somebody's like harming and I'm like, I totally, I see that. I'm very protective of my people. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. So back to the, like the boundaries of the TV and
SPEAKER_00:TV. Yeah. I think like physical proximity is really helpful for me. So like I, we have chargers on basically on the two ends of our house and our bedroom and in our laundry room or my husband's offices. And like, I try to keep my phone plugged in. Well, it's usually dying. My husband's always, rolling his eyes at, but I try to keep it in the bedroom charge, um, or somewhere else. I think just like having, like putting my phone to bed or having hours where I don't have it near me, um, is really helpful for me. Like putting the TV in our bedroom, um, it's not in the main living space. That's been really helpful. Um, like I said, I, when I do am on my iPhone, um, I delete the apps because I just know my own weaknesses and I just, it's, and it's not like I don't, I'm perfect at it. There are so many times where I'm like, oh, it's been an hour. How did that happen? Here I am scrolling. And I try like immediately when I feel that like, oh, I'm like, okay, delete the app. Like we're done. And I don't want to do that tomorrow night. And I think that I try to also like keep replacements for what I want to do with that time instead. Like out to like my sewing machine is out and but books on my nightstand and my Bible open on my counter. So like the things that I want to be doing, I think the physical proximity of having those things close really helps in having the things that I want to distance myself from more.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I completely agree. I would echo the dumbing your phone down and being really diligent to keep apps off your phone. I don't have any apps on my phone other than Walmart Plus, Apple, I don't know. I can't think of any others because I just think in my mind, if I can do it on my laptop, I can do it later. It doesn't have to happen right now. So I think that's a big step is just being really diligent to cut out games and socials and all that on your phone. And then what was the other one that I was going to say? I'm spacing on... Holy Spirit, help me. It'll come to me. It'll come to me because we were talking about how the... phone boundaries, but let's see, let's jump to the next question here. Um, so for somebody who's listening and maybe feels like, okay, either they feel convicted because they're like, man, my screen times a lot, uh, or they're intrigued and they're like, Hmm, you know, never really thought about that. Switching to a dumb phone, whatever. Uh, what would you say? Like, and then maybe they're overwhelmed by the thought of even making a decision like that because it's such a common thing for us to deal with. And it also can at times feel really daunting to even address it because it's such a prevalent problem personally, because I can speak into that. I mean, it's a real struggle. It's a constant thing. And we talked about this the last time. I really do think that it's never going away, right? Like tech's never going away. Social media is never going away. So we we're always in this broken world. We're always going to be wrestling with it and dealing with it. And I think in my flesh, I want it to go away so they don't have to work on it. Uh, but that's, that's not going to happen. But for the person who maybe feels overwhelmed, what would you, what would you encourage them with? Where, where should they start?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think there's a lot of practical steps like, you know, dumbing down your phone. Um, I like try to wear a watch so that when I, I'm trying to check the time on my phone instead I have it on my wrist or like having a digital camera, you know, like those practical things. But I think something that's been more helpful for me is like kind of digging down a little deeper into the root of why I, why I'm so inclined to my phone, or maybe it's kind of opening my mind to the ways that it is actually changing me. And I think a lot, a lot can come from just, being honest with yourself and being curious and asking yourself questions or having, asking somebody else questions about you and your phone usage. Yeah. Asking yourself, like, how is my phone shaping my heart? And am I, in my other ways that I'm neglecting the better thing, my phone, are there ways that it's impacting my in-person relationship, family and my friends and my spouse?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think asking those questions and just like starting the conversation with yourself or your friends can be really helpful because you can make all the changes. But if you're not like really, I guess, seeing the need for it or seeing the negative ways that it's impacting you, then it's not as easy to do it long-term, I think, to do those little changes long-term. But I think too, at the same time, I also... I hope that the people listening in all of this conversation feel like there's a lot of like, it's not the holier thing to have a light phone or to have no smartphone. Like it's not, for you, that might not be the answer. And I think it can be really easy for me to get in the shame spiral. My screen time last week was four hours and now it's just like you start thinking about how horrible you are and how disappointed God is with you. And that's just so not true. And I think it's really important as we do have these conversations that God has grace for you, whether you're trying to distract yourself from hard things that you're facing or in a weird place where you don't talk to him in the silence. There's just so much grace, I think, that we can all be met with wherever we're coming at this conversation from. Maybe that's just what I need to hear in this season where I just, yeah, I think I need to have God's grace and the ability for me to come to him and be vulnerable with wherever I am and not distract myself from the sweetest thing that I have access to, which is presence with him.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And also the reminder that like, I get, I find so much comfort in his mercies new every morning, being new every morning because especially as a mom and, but anybody really, when you have like, if you don't understand or fully grasp like the mercy of God, it's transformative because when you have really hard days or you have really rough days, when you make all the wrong decisions and you yell at your kids and you scroll for three hours to be able to wake up the next day and say like the slate is clean and is truly transformative. There's a genuine, I think that's where as Christians, that's sort of an aspect of the joy that we have in Christ is that because of the cross and because of who he is and what he gives us through like our faith in him, we have that fresh start every day. We have that abundant grace as you talked about. And it's not even just new every morning, right? It's new every moment. And that's so encouraging when you have hard days and you suck at life and you scroll and numb out and make all the wrong decisions, you know? So thank you for saying that. I also wanted to mention, I was in First Thessalonians this morning and this shifting from like the encouraging aspect to sort of more like the exhortation aspect. And this is always, for me, a wake-up call. But I was reading in First Thessalonians this morning and it was talking about the return of Christ and how he's going to come like a thief in the night and to be sober minded and to stay awake and to stay alert. And it was just a reminder that when he comes back, I don't want to be caught scrolling. Like when he comes back, I don't want to be caught numbing out in front of a screen because either A, I feel like I couldn't come to him. because of shame or whatever, or B, I just didn't choose the better portion, right? I think, oh, that makes me, I remember what I was going to say earlier was that you were talking about how one of the things that can help practically is having things around your house that, of what you actually want to do with that time, you know, whether it be hobbies or whatever. And I have found like personally that A lot of the times when I have hard days or weeks where I am trying to distract myself with screens or my phone, it's because I'm not busy intentionally doing something else. And I'm just simply, I have this time and I just want to escape from this time rather than thinking, Ooh, I'm excited. I have this time and I've been wanting to finish this book or I've been working on this project or, you know, personally, and I know you would have your own, you know, I really love working on this project or on this podcast. And I feel like this is my sort of lane. This is like the kingdom work that the Lord has me doing right now. And it's exciting. And it makes me want to spend that time not numbing out or scrolling. And so I think one encouragement practically would be to find a hobby or find something that you really enjoy doing that fills your cup that is more, you know, exciting to you than being on your phone, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. And I know you said you've been doing a lot of scripture memory too. And I feel like that is such an intentional way to combat the ways that our phones are destroying our brains and stealing our attention and making our attention span smaller and really working a muscle that we just don't work very often. That is such a really beautiful way to redeem the time that we have.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I need to be better at it, but I'm definitely... I'm doing the thing. I'm doing the thing. I mean, my goal is to memorize first Colossians, but when that happens, time-wise, who knows? But I have been able to challenge my presupposition and the opinion that I had previously of like, I don't have the time to do that. Or I'm a super forgetful person, so I can't do that. Or I don't have a good memory. And you know, all the things that are really just like lies, ourselves and the enemy. And I read a lot of books on it, so that helped. But I think just kind of combating all of that and being like, no, you know, I'm going to make time for what I think is important and what could be more important than, you know, memorizing God's word and hiding it in my heart. And I do think that scripture memorization as a practical tool and knowing like, Even just, where is it? Like whatever is praiseworthy, whatever is good, whatever is, you know, pure, like think about such things. And that is actually a scripture that I think about often when I'm scrolling and I'm seeing yuck. I think about that and I'm like, this isn't pure. This isn't praiseworthy. This isn't good. And so in that moment, it almost becomes a sin because I'm making a decision to fill my mind with things that are not praiseworthy or good or pure, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And just like you're actively fighting the tide. You're going the other way to shape yourself into the person that you want to be. Kind of like drifting along with whoever you're strolling takes you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think I said in the other one, I don't know. I don't know where this quote is coming from, but maybe I heard it Jenny Allen or something, but you, it takes nothing to drift. Like you just have to do nothing to drift and, And so even if all you're doing, and maybe this is where we'll close here is if you feel like you do have, which honestly I would say if you don't have, if you don't have a problem with it, are you a saint alien from somewhere? I don't, I just don't know how you couldn't struggle with something like this. It's just such a universal problem. But if you do feel like it's a struggle for you and you, you know, you feel that tension and you are going to do nothing about it, right? Like that's, I think, I think we should try and do something. And so what would you say to kind of close if they could do one thing, like what would that one thing be just to make, take a step in the right direction?
SPEAKER_00:Like, I want to say like, oh, does it need a light bulb? Because for me, that's like the easy answer. Yeah, I feel like the physical things that you, can do, whether it is the big jump of getting the light phone or honestly, like try it for a week, try like taking everything off your phone, Safari, don't Google, like take out from Google and take off your camera, whatever. I mean, it makes it, iPhone makes it hard to take off all those things, but do it for a day, do it for a week. And I think you notice that it's really inconvenient. It's really inconvenient for me to have a light phone when I do. And it, everything's just clunky and not as easy. But I think even that in itself is kind of shaping. And I think for me, it comes down to like, how much is our attention worth? Is it worth having some inconveniences so that we can be a more present person? Is it worth making a big shift and being kind of annoyed that my phone doesn't do what I want it to do? But also our phones should be, we're created to be tools. Now they're like something that is using us instead of us using it. Our phones should serve us, but I think a lot of times they don't. And so I think for me, turning my phone back into a tool that I can use to get to where I need to go, connect with the people that I need to talk to, to send a message, to send a call. I think that has really helped me to just kind of remember, I guess, how important my attention is and how it is kind of worth being inconvenienced. Right. Yeah. I think having the light phone has been like a, when I'm on it, it's just like, it's so different that I just feel like my whole experience of my day is different when I don't have
SPEAKER_01:my phone.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Wow. I'm sure it's very layered. A light phone or a T9 phone or flip phone or whatever. Like I think trying to dumb down your phone and just experience that, And sit with whatever comes up. That could be a really cool experiment. At the very least.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I agree with that. And even if you're like me. If you're listening and you're like me. And you're like I don't really want to make a switch like that. What I've done. And what I continue to do. Is like I mentioned earlier. Dumbing my phone down. But I love what you said. Of kind of returning back to what the purpose of the phone originally was. And saying okay. Maps are helpful. Texting, calling, that's helpful. You know, I have family far away, so FaceTiming, that's awesome. And, you know, occasionally like the Notes app is helpful. There are about like five things on my iPhone that I would say I would never want to get rid of, you know. But kind of returning back to what its original intent was can be really helpful in just stripping it back. And then I also have... I have in the past, and this wasn't highly, this wasn't very successful because it is so impractical at times, but I've kind of tried to do like a phone fast and even taking a step back from the amount of text messages and audios and calls that I even make. You know, we don't have to constantly be connected to people as much as we think that we need to, even though it is nice. And just trying to really say, okay, I'm going to, you know, you could fast for a day. I know somebody, I think it's somebody famous, but they fast all Once a day, I think it's on Sabbath. I think it's like they on Sabbath on Saturdays, I think my probably John Mark Comer, they don't use their phone at all. And they just, it's like the day that they fasted that I think any sort of fasting or stripping it down and, and, and yeah, I think it makes you realize how much you are dependent on it for all sorts of things that you don't even realize. And when you realize that, when you are fasting or you're trying to take a step back or set boundaries, you're just like, Oh man, like you said, you picked up your light phone. You're like, give me something to do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Like my thumbs are just looking for something and I'm like, Oh, this habit is so ingrained.
SPEAKER_01:It's so ingrained. It's so ingrained. Okay. Well, this is great. I feel like this was, I think we redeemed the tech problems. Thank you so much for coming on again. yeah with me to chat with me I hope that this conversation was encouraging for you guys Lauren isn't really are you like that are you taking a break from social media like I know you can briefly go into that because this isn't going to be like you can find Lauren here in fact Lauren's trying to like not be found
SPEAKER_00:yes I'm there very occasionally I think you know that was a whole thing too like trying to discern my motives with social media and I actually deleted it for a while. And it was so weird what came up because I was like going to deactivate it. And I was like, am I going to disappear? Like it was this weird feeling of like, who am I if I'm not seen on social media or who am I if people can't read my writings? You know, it was just like, it was weird. And I was like, okay, that I'm deactivate. Like that is a, that is a sign that I might be a little bit too much wrapped into my identity with being disabled. Yeah, it's just odd. Like you're so used to being seen on this thing and realize that that's not the most important thing about you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, and if you guys want to, she does have a sub stack. We haven't written in a while, but maybe if you ever come back, there is an article that really struck me and I thought it was really good. It's a good read and it was called An Ode to Silence and it was sort of kind of you stepping back from publicly sharing your writing in general. And I thought that that was such a, interesting perspective. And you shared kind of like Thomas Aquinas and his story of having a crazy encounter with God after finishing his like big piece of work or his book or whatever, had a really huge encounter with God that was so powerful that he never wrote again after that. And you kind of talked about that. And I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind spending a couple more minutes just talking about that is just, I think that aside from the distraction aspect of our phones, the, our presence on social media and the work that we put into, you know, for me, I know personally think there's an aspect. And I talked about this on social media, like platform building that can feel yucky, but not most people aren't doing that. You know, most people it's just sharing your personal lives, but there is so much wrapped up in it, like you said. And yeah, I had never considered even the thought of the motives behind my sharing stuff, like writing or on social media or anything like that. So do you mind just briefly kind of talking through your thought process there, especially in that article of Ode to Silence?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think there's so much too, because this is the tension that I feel like is why I go back and forth so much, because I know my heart. I know my motives aren't always pure. And my husband actually asked me some helpful questions sometimes. He asked me these questions a couple years ago when I was sharing some writing. And he's like, okay, why are you sharing this? Are you sharing this publicly because you want to be encouraging to people? Or do you want to be seen as someone who is encouraging, somebody who's a good writer, a good, strong Christian woman? And I was like, that's weird. To try to discern what the motives are there. And I think, too, like, I am so fickle and my heart is just like, sometimes my motives are pure, sometimes they're not. And I think a beautiful thing to do is that God can use, he can redeem even my bad motives and use something that I share, even if my heart isn't in the perfectly right place for it. Like it's not to share. I think it's a reason to dig into, you know, be honest with the Lord about what's there. But I... I also don't want to like wait until my motives are in the perfect place before I ever will be. Yeah. It's hard. And it's like, I think you said this in our last conversation, like it's, it's a broken world and it's part of the fault. Like this, this is technology in a broken world. It's not ever going to be perfect. And I think we just have to like do our best to navigate it and to try to use wisdom, to use accountability and, uh, just try to navigate it in the way that we think is best and do it for the glory of God. Yeah. I think there's just a lot, a lot that God can do with our very humble offerings. But I think at the end of the day, it's like, you know, why are you doing it? Who, who are you? If you don't, if you share, who are you? If you don't share anything and are you comfortable just being you with the Lord? And I think that's, Yeah, that could maybe be my encouragement to somebody who's listening right now. Turn this podcast off when it's over. Turn your phone off for five minutes and just sit with God and listen to him, talk to him, hear him, just be with him and know that he is okay with you just being. Just being, yeah. I think, yeah, for me, stepping away from writing has helped me with that. Knowing that the Lord is happy with me And love be when I'm to speak.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. When you're just being, and I just, even today, I was reminded listening to a different podcast when they had said, they were talking about the verse, be still and know. And she was saying like, you can't know unless you'd be still. And I'd never thought of it that way before. And like, that's so true, right? Like you can't know the Lord intimately without being still. So that's a good place to land because I think that in the conversation, whether it be digital distraction with our phones or our attention and what it's worth and being present with people or whether it's our motives and sharing on social media or even just our engagement on social media, just this overarching reminder that if any of that is coming between our ability to be still and know, I think that there's a change that needs to be made. Amen. Well, this was a good conversation again. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah. Well, I loved it. Loved it.